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10 minutes ago by mikeg8

I started free diving for abalone along the Sonoma coast in 2008. The first few years of diving were plentiful and majestic. But my friends and I noticed the changes around 2015. Less sunflower stars and star fish. After some red tide events, the abalone die offs were crazy. Coves that used to have abs stacked on top of each other were almost empty. Finding a 9” abalone became a chore. The thinner kelp forests meant less fish, less life. It’s been difficult to watch first hand. I get sad thinking about the reality that my children will most likely never see the underwater forests that filled my soul and gave me a deep love of the ocean. I hope we can help the system get back in balance.

5 hours ago by nradov

I have been diving in the Monterey, CA region since 1999 and have seen the change first hand. Sunflower sea stars are now extinct in the area; I haven't seen one in years. Some of the smaller sea star species have started to gradually recover but they aren't effective at preying on purple urchins. There is a local group culling urchins but they'll only be able to cover a small area.

https://g2kr.com/

2 minutes ago by TheBlight

I surf in the Monterey bay almost every day and the bull kelp is as thick as it's ever been.

4 hours ago by contingencies

Please consider taking the time to add your historic observations to https://inaturalist.org/

3 hours ago by nradov

I appreciate the suggestion but I would rather focus on gathering data for Project Baseline Point Lobos which is tracking changes at one specific area near Monterey.

http://db.projectbaseline.org/?c=USA&p=11&s=1M

15 minutes ago by hedgehog

Do you know if they've looked at trapping the urchins? I believe traps are used to harvest urchins elsewhere and it works ok.

3 hours ago by aryik

Thank you for sharing this. I literally got open water certified in Monterey this afternoon, and I will be signing up to volunteer!

40 minutes ago by ubertoop

I've clearly been doing this quarantine / pandemic wrong.

4 hours ago by shartshooter

One reason we don't have kelp forests in Oregon is due to sea otters having been wiped out, which kept the urchins at bay.[0]

Unfortunately, according to OPs article:

Others have suggested bringing in another kelp forest predator, the sea otter, to help fight back the urchins. The problem with this appears to be that sea otters aren’t so interested in the skinny, starved urchins occupying the most barren areas, reports Anuradha Varanasi for Inverse. A separate study published this week in the journal the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, suggests the otters do eat urchins but that they prefer the more well-fed residents of the coast’s remaining kelp forests to the so-called “zombie urchins” clinging to life in the denuded barrens.

[0] - https://oregonwild.org/about/blog/lost-sea-otters-oregon-par...

5 hours ago by aboringusername

I mean you can't have 8 billion needy, constantly consuming humans for 60/70 years and somehow have a sustainable, vibrant and healthy ecosystem.

You can't have all the modern day luxuries (cars, airplanes, electricity 24/7) and somehow expect everything to just "hum" along.

I think news reports like these will become more common, more frequent and a natural byproduct of how things are now, regardless as to whether human activity/climate change is the cause.

I am uncertain about this whole "2030" neutrality thing, why not 2025? Why not next year? We're not very good at setting ambitious targets nor making people suffer for the benefit of nature (I'm sure somewhere there is a "link" between this event and the devastating impact humans are having on the natural world as we know it)

Even a pandemic didn't have much effect whereas in previous times tens of millions would've been expected to die.

Cue another attenborough documentary telling us how everything is basically screwed...Somehow he would convince us about how fossil fuels is directly responsible for this activity taking place...

4 hours ago by falcolas

> You can't have all the modern day luxuries (cars, airplanes, electricity 24/7)

I'm still feeling this argument out a bit, but... what can an individual actually do about it? Even if you look beyond how little any individual family contributes to pollution, in comparison to even some of the simplest industrial ventures.

I can't do without electricity 24x7, because I live in the north. I'd freeze to death. Think the recent crap Texas had to go through, for around 8 months of the year.

I can't do without a car because my commute is around 20 miles one way. I - quite literally - can't afford to live closer to work; the prices are on par with the bay area ($600,000 1,000 sqft condos), despite living in a very sparsely populated state with "competitive" wages in the $80k range for experienced software developers.

I could (and have) done without airplanes, but the alternative (if I want to keep my job) is to drive for around 18 hours. Not terribly friendly. The bus is closer to 48 hours, with prices on par with the airlines.

It is, for all intents and purposes, impossible for me (for a vast majority of people, I'd posit) to live without a job, without electricity, and without a car. And, realistically, I have very little control over my house, my car, my food, etc; these are instead largely based on my salary.

I get what's been made available by the market to me at a price that I can afford. It's not as if the market will change to less profitable products just because they're a bit better for the world. And it's not as if I can suddenly afford more expensive products just because they're better for the world.

3 hours ago by 2OEH8eoCRo0

>I can't do without a car

Never buy another car. Fix what you have when you need to.

Eat less meat. Live principled- not that you don't but doing these things is almost contagious. I notice friends and family following my lead. Consuming less, buying less.

3 hours ago by falcolas

> Fix what you have when you need to.

Not possible to do myself, and it's not feasible to pay someone to do it. I don't have the tools, the electronics, nor the replacement parts (not to mention knowledge or time) to keep a modern car going for the remaining 30-50 years of my lifetime. Attempting to fix it at the point where everything is falling apart becomes impractical (as I keep trying to tell my dad when he's spending even more money to make a '79 truck run).

Not to mention that getting those parts custom made or shipped to you from across the country incurs its own environmental penalty.

> Eat less meat.

I've found that, to keep a balanced diet without meat, it's quite a bit more expensive, and exceptionally more time consuming. Then there's the health issues (like those outlined in the scar study featured on HN a week or so ago).

I absolutely could compromise my health and lifespan for the sake of the world, but I'm not going to.

> Consuming less, buying less.

There's a lower limit to how much less you can do and still remain as a healthy, productive adult, but I agree that it's a good thing to do for many reasons; it's something I try and do.

Even if I took every step outlined, it would have, effectively, no impact on the environment.

3 hours ago by ALittleLight

I think "The only way out is through" meaning, we will not solve the problem by consuming less or becoming primitive. We will solve the problem by developing through the environmental constraints and replacing our harmful behaviors with better ones. For example, solar, wind, nuclear, and one day fusion providing power instead of coal, oil, and natural gas. Electric cars instead of internal combustion and so on.

People just are not going to use less stuff. In fact, they're going to use more. There are billions of people in the developing world who use a lot less energy and stuff than people in the developed world - but they are developing and will come to use and consume more and more. We won't impoverish ourselves, we can't ask the developing world to stay poor, and the population is growing all the time.

Plans or hopes that involve consuming less are unrealistic. The only way to save the environment is better technology and geo-engineering.

2 hours ago by justatdotin

'consuming less' does not mean 'becoming primitive'.

ever-growing consumption on a finite planet is unrealistic.

4 hours ago by heurist

People lived in the north prior to the invention of electricity, so it's possible. Maybe more difficult now due to the quantity of firewood that would be needed with a larger population? Architecture (and dense urban development) plays an important role in electricity-free livability across various climate conditions. Some buildings work well in the cold, some work well in the heat. That's not to say you as an individual can address these problems, but society as a whole can design urban systems which support low-energy living in even difficult conditions.

3 hours ago by falcolas

> but society as a whole can design urban systems which support low-energy living in even difficult conditions.

What's the forcing function? It's already been proven that a global climate crisis is not enough to move society. It's not profitable enough to convince corporations to do it. The 0.1% have no cause to do it; even the humanitarians among that group have much better investments they can make.

EDIT: Also, in the past, living in the north without electricity was managed by burning wood and coal. Given the significant increase in population the impact to the environment of burning all that would be irrecoverable on its own.

4 hours ago by nostromo

The only thing that can be done is have fewer children. Everything else is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The good news is that this is already happening in most places. The bad news is that population growth is still out of control in Africa and parts of Asia, and may lead to a environmental crisis before population growth gets under control.

3 hours ago by falcolas

Done. I have no children, nor plans for children. Sadly, a childhood friend of mine has made up for myself and my partner 5 times over.

5 hours ago by s1artibartfast

>you can't have 8 billion needy, constantly consuming humans for 60/70 years and somehow have a sustainable, vibrant and healthy ecosystem.

It is worth noting that the collapse had nothing to do with over harvest of sea life.

4 hours ago by bbarn

The cause of the wasting symptom is still unknown, that's why the link in the article leads to a school that is looking for specimens to analyze.

It would be very surprising, to me at least, to find ultimately humans did not contribute to this chain of events. Whether it's something like microplastics causing the lesions on the star fish or water temperature/chemical concentration leading to some fungal spore growing, I suspect ancient kelp forests aren't vanishing without our help.

4 hours ago by s1artibartfast

This is an entirely different point than mine about harvest.

It is entirely possible it is in some way related to human activity. It is also possible that it is completely unrelated. Booms, busts, and radical ecosystem changes do happen all the time in nature.

4 hours ago by ralusek

Just to be clear, almost every species that has ever existed has gone extinct. And almost all of that has happened before humans existed.

That being said, it's almost definitely due to humans, I just wanted to be pedantic.

4 hours ago by brudgers

The size of the sea otter population is almost certainly a result of human activity. In particular the fur trade and fisheries.

3 hours ago by darksaints

We're pretty bad at managing wild resources, but then again, we're pretty bad at saving them as well. For example, the same marine mammal act which saved sea otters from extinction has also allowed for the overpopulation of harbor seals which is going to drive the southern resident orcas into extinction. And the fisheries systems that we've built to save salmon and steelhead populations have resulted in less genetic diversity in wild populations that make them more susceptible to disease and predation. Not that I have an answer to this, just a little frustrated that we didn't care about this stuff sooner, and had a more developed body of science on how to deal with these things.

4 hours ago by s1artibartfast

Yes, but otters don’t particularly care to eat urchins.

4 hours ago by aboringusername

I think that mindset is what has led us to the current predicament we're now facing.

We have to understand the connection between a seemingly "innocent" event such as throwing trash in a random place and something else happening thousands of miles away - the events can be interconnected and the various documentaries have been trying to make us think about that.

If our activity causes warming that causes more storms that causes species to migrate earlier to different parts of the globe than usual that causes unpredictable food for other animals which they were relying on and have done for years, which in turn means they can't reproduce or sustain their cubs meaning other animals might suffer as a result and suddenly the entire chain is broken, disjointed and collapses.

Humans have no idea how fragile the ecosystem is or how resilient it may be (since we've never had this many humans living at once, consuming at the rates we are and causing the warming we've been witnessing).

4 hours ago by s1artibartfast

The fact that events can sometimes have unintuitive consequences does not make it rational to claim two random things are connected and ignore all the science we do have.

The sea star wasting may be tied to global warming or not and there are some plausible hypothesis. That said, there is no credible theory which ties it to overfishing.

4 hours ago by planet-and-halo

For a somewhat encouraging counterpoint to this statement, check out the book "More From Less." It describes a lot of positive trends including decreasing demand for many resources whose extraction is damaging to the environment. Some examples: we farm far less land in the United States than we used to while producing more food, and that unused area slowly reverts to forest; we use less metal to make containers for the same volume of liquid. There's still plenty to worry about, but more positive signs than you'd think.

5 hours ago by TedShiller

It’s funny how we are aware of the damage, and yet everyone still wants to live like a millionaire

It’s not possible.

5 hours ago by elihu

To be fair, there were some pretty drastic reduction in emissions from transportation in the last year. That was due to a global pandemic rather than environmental activism, but still it's progress. It may have at least caused some permanent changes in behavior regarding driving to the office every day.

Before the pandemic I didn't work from home at all. Now after working from home 100% for a year I'm looking forward to being able to see my coworkers in person again when things open up, but I'll probably work from home a few days a week. Not a huge change, but every little bit helps, especially when hundreds of millions or billions of other people start working from home a few days a week who wouldn't before.

5 hours ago by dominotw

> It’s not possible.

Why not. You can live like a millionaire and not have kids. Having a kid is many factors worse than living a millionaire.

5 hours ago by oivey

Really, really depends on how you live. People in first world countries are worse for the environment than people in third world countries by a wide margin per capita.

5 hours ago by flatline

The US is effectively zero population growth, as are many other affluent parts of the world. This seems like an overly simplistic assessment.

an hour ago by lovecg

Are you advocating for only certain people not to have kids (in which case, what’s your criteria on who should and who shouldn’t), or that no one should have kids (e.g. the humanity should die out)?

3 hours ago by daamsie

iirc dogs are also equivalent to the average emissions of a person in Vietnam. So best to cut them out as well.

4 hours ago by shadowfaxRodeo

The podcast "How to save a Planet" did an interesting two parter on kelp farming as a climate solution. If anyone is interested:

https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet/94h3rvm/kelp-...

3 hours ago by warmwaffles

Another solution is to utilize algae, but it would destroy ecosystems at the scale we'd need it. Still a fun thought exercise.

3 hours ago by forgotmypw17

Many comments here wondering what an individual can do... I'll tell you what I've done in order to stop feeling complicit.

I stopped buying anything "new" unless I absolutely cannot live without it.

Not all at once, but one thing at a time, I looked for alternatives and pulled the trigger.

2 hours ago by readflaggedcomm

Your self-absolution does not a scientific solution make.

an hour ago by scottrogowski

Disagree. In a democracy, the only way to make the important policy changes is for the majority of people to be on board with it. Tiny actions by individuals move the needle of public opinion. Additionally, different individuals reducing their consumption in different ways provides a diversity of ideas which can later inspire the so-called "scientific solutions".

2 hours ago by forgotmypw17

I don't understand what you're saying here...

2 hours ago by kortilla

Your individual reductions in consumption are pointless here. If you just ceased to exist it would not meaningfully move the needle.

At this point we need hard societal pressure via laws to make any kind of statistical difference. I’d prefer someone be a hypocrite pushing for legislation to reduce emissions (e.g. Al Gore on a private jet) than someone who reduces locally and calls it good.

There are just too many people that don’t care for “local action” to stop the impending doom.

2 hours ago by irrational

I think they are saying that your actions might make you feel better, but have no practical value.

an hour ago by Hnrobert42

All any one person can do is make individual contributions.

an hour ago by tehjoker

You can also organize politically to get large scale action.

2 hours ago by hedora

The most effective thing is probably banding together to vote in politicians that will actually do something about climate change.

It’ll be at least another 8 years until the US does that (unless Biden ends up changing course), and that’s way past the point of no return for the planet.

Even if Biden isn’t reelected in 4 years, it will just mean we end up with an even more climate hostile president.

In the very short term, people should be protesting in the streets to end the filibuster, and then immediately fund primary challenges to any democrat the stands in the way of the green new deal.

42 minutes ago by tootie

That's pretty cynical. Biden says he wants to end fossil fuel consumption by 2050. You might say it's insufficiently aggressive but it's also still 100% impossible so long as we have an opposition party unwilling to even acknowledge the problem.

https://joebiden.com/climate-plan/

2 hours ago by sumedh

> Even if Biden isn’t reelected in 4 years

Biden has said he is not going to stand for reelection.

an hour ago by sp332

This was something that was reportedly "signaled to aides" but never made official. Officially, he has not decided to only run for one term. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/23/joe-biden-no... & https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/biden-campaig...

an hour ago by hedora

Source? I see some speculation, and comments from Biden saying he’s planning to run again.

4 hours ago by boulos

Adjacent topic: My Octopus Teacher [1] was a fascinating view into a single kelp forest and occupant that folks here might enjoy.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Octopus_Teacher

3 hours ago by abootstrapper

I enjoyed it, but damn that dude is hella privileged.

an hour ago by justatdotin

five years ago half the coast of australia suffered massive dieback of mangroves, coral and sea grass.

The worst I saw was mangroves around the Gulf of Carpentaria, and my immediate assumption was the dirty lead mine nearby, but then people around the country started connecting dots to other intertidal and coastal failures that started to all line up until the entire northern coast was implicated.

The broad impact, coupled with records, suggested that this was a response to a season of low rainfall in the context of sustained elevated sea temperatures. recovery has been very gradual, as predicted.

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